Liar Game Episode 8 Discussion

Damn, Nao is so easy to trick man. Every fucking time whenever Nao smiles other that being with Akiyama, she always lands in trouble. Fukunaga is really one piece of shit asshole.

Akiyama will have to do something now otherwise her 40 million yen will be long gone. Damn, she could have come with her father's illness and treatment as an excuse, but that noob really had to blab the truth. SMH!!

both the author and his FMC are dumb asf..cuz you can't write a character THIS gullible and retarded..like 7 freaking episodes in and this bixch still doesn't realise that no one in this game is a good guy

Oh brother, all these other characters are almost as dumb as her. And of course Akiyama ghosts her then starts to worry why she stopped calling. Geez why didn't you answer once if you actually cared. Let me guess he'll somehow be able to coach her to win.

Plus there are people just as foolish in the real world trust me I've seen some. lol

@Gwynbleidd_Alan “I think you’re arguing against a point I’m not making.” - This is literally everyone here that’s defending this show, it’s baffling. They are all doing exactly this, and trying to make all of us argue in circles, before saying our opinions don’t matter cause we haven’t seen “round 3” yet. Nobody seems to be able to think from an alternative perspective.

Nao got hoodwinked, bamboozled, led astray, run amuck and flat out deceived there, with such ease too. Without Akiyama there, she is a walking target and revealing about her lack of debt then through Yuji's questions during the pitch meeting in front of the other players too did her no favors whatsoever. She got fooled once again by the same person who betrayed them the previous time who laughed in everyone's faces about it. She got herself in this situation with being manipulated like that by the fake lawyer with Akiyama's backstory to play her emotions into this, and she got set up huge to help Yuji do well there, and giving them power even when there were hints of the others like Miura trying to talk to Nao there despite having tickets/money invested basically into Yuji's plan. I can respect the desire to leave an honest and trusting life with goodwill, and preserving those values even when trouble hits, but she put herself in this situation out of volition, to be in debt again. Yuji normally would have been screwed from the getgo in a situation like this, but with Nao being there, might be the luckiest they've gotten in a while to make her such an easy target that can be folded and twisted easily. It is interesting though, without Akiyama present, to see how Nao can get out of this by herself (or if she can). That alone makes me want to see how this all plays out.

At this point, I'm ok with Nao being naive and getting into Fukunaga's trap. But why did she vote for Fukunaga after 1st vote? She could try to do something after 1st vote or at least write a different name (the guy with a mohawk)....It wouldn't change her situation but why would she still write in two rounds 5 times the name of the person that once again used and betrayed her.....

@Sun_Chan
Out of curiosity, what you think Nao shouldve done at that point?

As I replied above already, don't tell of using M tickets to secure votes because Nao isnt an A-type player like Fukunaga to notice tickets can be used that way and do it against him of all people. I personally doubt people able to comprehend any shit at this point

Nao playing innocent card is her ONLY card of jail out there. I'd tell on it more later regardless whether I see your reply or not even I personally doubt haters able to listen to anyone at this point.

@EscapismToTheMax how am I a hater for leaving a simple comment? Am I not allowed to express my opinion of a character? You don't need to police everyone’s opinions just because you disagree with them.

And for the record, I don't hate her. I’m frustrated with her decisions and actions, and there's nothing wrong with feeling that way. Criticism doesn't equate to hate.

Yeah, she may end up redeeming herself at some point, but watching Nao stumble around on her own just isn't fun at this point in the story. I was left solely frustrated throughout this episode, making it probably my least favorite so far. I hate to say it, but you could totally drop her and nothing of value would be lost. The show would still be interesting and enjoyable with a competent MC. By contrast I was sorely missing Akiyama throughout this episode. I hope he's never absent from an episode for that long again. That or Nao decides to grow a brain.

@animefan8800 Agreed. If they just made Akiyama the MC, it would be a much more interesting show and far less annoying.

At this point, I'm ok with Nao being naive and getting into Fukunaga's trap. But why did she vote for Fukunaga after 1st vote? She could try to do something after 1st vote or at least write a different name (the guy with a mohawk)....It wouldn't change her situation but why would she still write in two rounds 5 times the name of the person that once again used and betrayed her.....

Only 1 guy is saying that. I don't believe round 3 will make a difference in anyone's opinion. I don't even think it's as good as the poker round, but that's just my own opinion.

Not gonna lie, Fukunaga is really clever. She knows how to manipulate other people and how the game works. Though honestly I don't really like her, I have to admit that she's an ideal player for a high-stakes game like LGT.

I'm not that annoyed with Nao anymore so it's really sad seeing her thank someone who tricked her (again). And yep, she ended up getting deceived again... this kind of reminded me of Nao in the early episodes when she thanked her Sensei while he was offering to help her even though he actually wanted to trick her. She experienced the exact same thing twice!!! I feel so sad and bad for her... T____T

Miura got beaten up and it seems like Akiyama will end up joining Nao. Will Akiyama become a substitute player again? I hope so, just so Fukunaga can get destroyed by Akiyama (hehehehe :3).

If Nao survives this round and meets Fukunaga again, I hope she won't fall for her tricks anymore and can understand how she manipulates people. Because Nao doesn't know what kind of enemies she'll meet in the next rounds.... if she understands Fukunaga's tactics, at least she'll have some kind of preparation for this psychological battles....

It'd honestly be better if Fukunaga lost this round though... haha (I'm sorry I just want her to lose....)

@YorForgersSlave
I'm eternally obliged to its creators to let it finally happen.

Liar Game is the Mastodonte work which inspired a lot of series which built huge fanbases by itself (Squid Game, Tomodachi Game, Danganronpa, Cote by the looks of it - personally can't confirm) and TV shows, dethroned Death Note in a process, brought Poker and Finance/Economics to the uneducated audience, set a lot records along the way and kicked Nao haters to the curb. I think that's literally the best thing ever.

For those who actually been involved in Contracts/Gambling/Teams Positioning, it's also can be a playbook of a sorts, though it's something from another planet compared to casual level people tend to watch the shows. Liar Game has the best game & tournament design period. If you have a play-to-win mentality and able to follow through all the situations, hidden possibilities and rules loopholes never shown in the show, etc. Its a grand sandbox. I mean I don't think people just able to follow it closely.

Round 3 is non-mahjong game yet the game is so hard you'd find manga readers don't understand it fully (so for them it's like a Mahjong). That's an achievement by itself in this genre. I mean from the non-lethal non-mahjong games Liar Game is undisputed top 1, and including lethal ones it's top 3 (together with Kaiji and Usogui), both of which are manga only mostly

For shonen fans, maybe this analogue works better. I'd argue Liar Game is same level as Steel Ball Run but that's because of characters who yet enter the fray. One hell of a journey for sure

@EscapismToTheMax I agree with you and it's a shame people are looking at the wrong things while watching the show. Liar Game is great because of the games, the endless possibilities of loopholes and abusing them. The games are thought of from every possible angle. It's not supposed to be story driven, yet all I see is people complaining about Nao. Despite the fact that there are people who are as stupid as her (I wouldn't even call her stupid in the first place tbh, she is just naive and trusting and it will be her strength later on). Look how many people fall into the MLM traps and get scammed over and over again. Her acting stupid is not an example of bad writing, it's the exact opposite. But I guess any character that is flawed and behaves like a real person is non bearable for them because they can't self insert.

This anime has reached the wrong audience somehow, the anime crowd nowadays is weird. If Kaiji came out today it would also be made fun of probably... People are stupid, what can you do?

@Poice You misunderstood what happened. Of course Nao didn't vote for Fukunaga after the 1st round, she's not that naive, LOL. As shown at the end of the episode, Fukunaga made a contract with the red-hair guy using the M-tickets, so all her votes after the 1st round went from him. If you look at the voting table after round 2, you'll find out who Nao voted for. Hint:

@EscapismToTheMax I agree with you and it's a shame people are looking at the wrong things while watching the show. Liar Game is great because of the games, the endless possibilities of loopholes and abusing them. The games are thought of from every possible angle. It's not supposed to be story driven, yet all I see is people complaining about Nao. Despite the fact that there are people who are as stupid as her (I wouldn't even call her stupid in the first place tbh, she is just naive and trusting and it will be her strength later on). Look how many people fall into the MLM traps and get scammed over and over again. Her acting stupid is not an example of bad writing, it's the exact opposite. But I guess any character that is flawed and behaves like a real person is non bearable for them because they can't self insert.

This anime has reached the wrong audience somehow, the anime crowd nowadays is weird. If Kaiji came out today it would also be made fun of probably... People are stupid, what can you do?

I refuse to watch that show for the chins. People mock Liar Game's art too, but it charms me in a way Kaiji does not.

I said it before, but I'll repeat in case you missed it: if a story needs an analysis comment on MAL to be enjoyed and understood (and an f-ing long one at that), then it's doing a poor job as a story. Period.

A story, any story, should be self contained. I shouldn't feel the need to check or read anything else.

If I read "The Name of the Rose" and i don't know latin or medieval history, I might miss some references and I might misunderstand some sentences, but I can still enjoy the story and I can still get its themes.

If I read "Watership Down" and I don't know the Aeneid, I might miss all the epic literature parallelisms, but I can still understand the plot.

If in order to enjoy LG I need to know game theory or read an essay every episode, the show is doing something VERY wrong.

Can't wait to see how those things they brought come into play.
---
I don't like how Akiyama seems rushing to her rescue again.

@Kyou_Ryuu
There are two things at play here.

First and utmost, if you are not an angry oblivious Nao hater, you can enjoy LG without taking into account the need of building trust like most people do. So it's not a necessity to see the whole picture and to think in game theory terms for Downsizing no matter how you'd like to spin in that way.

But now why everything is being highlighted is because of Round 3. Like it or not, I use poker as the best analogy as it's the nature of the pro competitive game it's not accessible to everyone at least without some information backdrop. Contrary to what you are thinking it being less accessible only makes it great not bad and ofc it can be enjoyed without understanding any shit too, just on a base of the emotions.

But I see LG community (rather than random casuals haters no one gives shit about) as the one who should cherish knowledge and enjoy Round 3 buildup. Also take into account it's not like you'd see more on that afterwards, so it's definitely contained.

As always people don't want to think, period. And it's not Liar Game's or mine problem. I think if the show is too smart for someone's brains and it's hurting him and he screams the only thing I could do is go and explain the design / the logic. I do it because I have everything to do it not because Im obliged to do it.

In other words, Im doing exactly what you asked for previously- by being sympathetic to others' struggles. EV+ move cause you'd be BEGGING for it yourself once Round 3 starts, haha.

None of the things you mentioned in your previous messages is ever explained in the show, up to this point. Hindsight (because you know the rest of the story) is never a valid explanation. It falls into "trust me bro" territory.

Instead of blaming the audience for having their brain hurt and/or screaming, I blame the show for not giving enough context to the audience to enjoy it.
There are countless of stories out there that can be enjoyed without knowing anything about the topic at hand. I can enjoy "Sangatsu no lion" without knowing anything about shogi. I can enjoy "Hikaru no Go" without knowing anything about go.

If people come here complaining that the show is poorly written (so far), and it's the majority of them, most likely something is off.
And it's not like they are just tourists or action-shōnen hardcore fans. I've been watching all kind of anime, of many different genres, since 1995. I've watched so many that I don't even remember a good half of them that I watched in the past, and for that reason they're not even in my MAL list.

And I still find this show underwhelming. Is the manga better? Maybe, I haven't read it so I don't know. But the anime doesn't strike me as memorable. And the reason? Beside the obvious low production value, it's in the writing.

What you label as "Nao haters" are most likely just frustrated by her behaviour. And your explanations don't help, because they are HERE, while they should be evident IN THE SHOW ITSELF.

I read Liar Game with no outside explanations and I enjoyed it more than Lion.

@Lucifrost

And this is why I said I cannot really judge the manga. This could be a problem of the adaptation.
When you read, you go through the story at your own pace. You can read carefully every sentence twice, or you can skim through the text quickly.
An anime adaptation can't do that: it sets the same pacing for everyone.

Let me bring an example from LG: the exposition dump at the end of Minority Rule. I was extremely critical of how this was handled in the anime, saying that they gave us only 5 minutes of progression vs. 12 minutes of exposition in that episode.
I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have had the same issue in the manga: I'm a fast reader, and even if walls of text can be annoying at times, they definitely don't take me 12 minutes to read.

So, the adaptation can't be a beat-by-beat copy of the manga. It's a different medium, it requires different engagement.

Also, the fact that without context you personally liked LG more than Lion doesn't mean much: it's clear that the majority of the audience thinks otherwise so far, or we would have a higher rating and a lower Dropped rate for this show.

None of the things you mentioned in your previous messages is ever explained in the show, up to this point. Hindsight (because you know the rest of the story) is never a valid explanation. It falls into "trust me bro" territory.

Instead of blaming the audience for having their brain hurt and/or screaming, I blame the show for not giving enough context to the audience to enjoy it.
There are countless of stories out there that can be enjoyed without knowing anything about the topic at hand. I can enjoy "Sangatsu no lion" without knowing anything about shogi. I can enjoy "Hikaru no Go" without knowing anything about go.

If people come here complaining that the show is poorly written (so far), and it's the majority of them, most likely something is off.
And it's not like they are just tourists or action-shōnen hardcore fans. I've been watching all kind of anime, of many different genres, since 1995. I've watched so many that I don't even remember a good half of them that I watched in the past, and for that reason they're not even in my MAL list.

And I still find this show underwhelming. Is the manga better? Maybe, I haven't read it so I don't know. But the anime doesn't strike me as memorable. And the reason? Beside the obvious low production value, it's in the writing.

What you label as "Nao haters" are most likely just frustrated by her behaviour. And your explanations don't help, because they are HERE, while they should be evident IN THE SHOW ITSELF.

It's not really clear what's going on with Liar Game. The only times I've seen adaptations rated so much lower than the manga are Berserk, Tokyo Ghoul, and The Promised Neverland. Liar Game does nothing to butcher the material as those other anime do. Even the Phoenix anime are rated higher, and I assure you that some are among the worst adaptations I've seen.

Any other adaptation of a hit manga gets countless 10/10 votes within the 1st day it airs. Although the scores always go down over time, adaptations never have this much trouble finding an eager audience.

@Lucifrost

I believe my last reply to them addresses the main issues surrounding the reviews of the Liar Game adaptation so far. I'm curious to know if you agree with my analysis.

@haiyashi2k
I don't agree that one needs to watch other anime in the same genre before watching Liar Game. Liar Game was more popular than its contemporaries, so many of its fans were new to the genre. I have not actually read any of the other gambling manga you mentioned, as I don't think they look interesting.

I'm intrigued by the notion that seasonal watchers try to prove their skill in critical thinking by latching onto simple flaws. I didn't understand why anyone expected Liar Game to look like Demon Slayer, when people used to watch genuinely ugly shows without complaint. It makes more sense now that I realize most ugly hits aired before online streaming was invented.

The high scores of the new Legend of the Galactic Heroes still make no sense, especially considering the intense scrutiny typically leveled at remakes. I remember the way viewers picked apart every frame of Sailor Moon Crystal and Berserk, comparing them unfavorably to older versions.

@Kyou_Ryuu

While what you said makes sense, there are many things you may not be considering (sorry for the huge reply, haha).

First of all, expectations take a huge role in how a show is received. If you watch a battle shounen like One Piece expecting something like Monster, you will probably end up disappointed. So outside information can be valuable to help you have the right expectations.

You said the show has been underwhelming for you. But did you have the right expectations going into it? Did you watch One Outs, from the same author and genre? Maybe that's actually the best way to get introduced to his works and understand exactly what kind of stories you should expect from him.

I think it's important to understand why the manga is so praised in the first place, right? So there are a couple things worth knowing beforehand:
- Liar Game is a niche work. To enjoy it, it helps if you appreciate similar mangas about gambling, mind games, and battle of wits, like Usogui, Kaiji, Akagi, and One Outs. It also helps to have at least some interest in math, game theory, and psychology.
- The anime is currently adapting only the third manga volume, while the manga has 19 volumes in total. So we are still basically in the introduction arc. Most manga readers agree that the story starts off relatively simple, and only in later arcs does it become truly addicting and fantastic.
- What made the manga so highly praised wasn't really the plot, narrative, or story itself. I agree those aspects are pretty simple. The real appeal was the interesting games and the clever strategies. In the later arcs, Liar Game has some of the most beautiful strategies I have ever seen in a manga.
- Many aspects of the story may seem cliché now, but they were not considered cliché when the manga was released in 2005.

Besides that, outside context may also be necessary for another reason: misunderstandings. That happens all the time. Even in popular shows like Death Note, if you search discussions on Reddit, you will notice that many people misunderstood or got confused about several aspects of the story, and only appreciated them after someone explained what they had missed.

Regarding Liar Game, a lot of people misunderstood stuff from previous episodes, but instead of realizing it was their own misunderstanding, they immediately assumed it was a flaw in the writing. For example, one person criticized the life insurance covering suicide in episode 7, but if they had outside context about Japanese laws, they would know that's actually how it works in Japan. It wasn't something made up by the author. Another person didn't even realize that the mother's suicide was meant to allow her son to receive the insurance money and pay for college. See? A lot of people are making wrong assumptions that lead them to think the writing is much worse than it actually is.

Even Nao's actions are often exaggerated because many viewers refuse to genuinely try to see the situation from her perspective. Once someone starts watching a show unwilling to acknowledge its positive aspects, it becomes much harder for them to enjoy it. For example, in the episode 7 discussion thread, almost nobody praised the clever foreshadowing involving the missing nameplate on Akiyama's clothes, yet almost everyone focused on complaining about Nao's actions. Why focus entirely on what they perceive as "bad" while ignoring everything good? A lot of negative reviews don't feel "fair" in that regard.

Besides that, many complaints can be answered through simple logical deductions. I'll give only two examples, but there are many more.

Example 1:
Regarding Akiyama's backstory, a common criticism was: "How could this guy know about Akiyama's past? That makes no sense." After thinking about it for a couple seconds, here's my interpretation (not spoilers, just theories): we already know that the Liar Game organization is shady, so it's reasonable to assume they have connections within the police. And the police obviously investigated Akiyama's crime motivations and his mother's death to determine the reasons behind the suicide. So through those police connections, the Liar Game organizers could easily have learned a lot about Akiyama's past.

Example 2:
People complain that Nao returned to the game because she was manipulated. But was she really? It's obvious she consciously chose to take the risk because, even though Akiyama seems confident he can win the next rounds, nobody can know that for sure. She is still worried about him. And that concern is not dependent on whether the backstory was true or fabricated. Even if the Liar Game organizers completely invented the backstory, it wouldn't really matter for Nao emotionally. She still cares about Akiyama, who was extremely kind to her. So yeah, of course, she knows the odds are not in her favor, but she decides to take the risk and try to earn more money so she can at least help pay Akiyama's debt if something goes wrong in the future: maybe Akiyama gets sick, can't participate in the next round and ends up with a massive debt. Nao could easily have thought about that possibility.

See? I came up with these explanations without much effort. But many people, instead of trying to think things through, immediately go to discussion threads just to complain. A lot of viewers refuse to think about these details on their own. They want every explanation delivered directly through monologues and exposition, as if they don't want to think for even a second. But Liar Game is not the type of series you watch with your brain turned off. It's a battle of wits story, so logical deductions are naturally expected from the audience. Part of the fun is trying to think about the explanations behind things that are not fully spelled out by the story.

Besides that, the anime probably avoids overexplaining every tiny detail because doing so would completely ruin the pacing of the adaptation, which adapts around three manga chapters per episode. Otherwise, people would just complain that the anime is too slow, haha.

I also feel like a lot of people simply want excuses to criticize Liar Game. And why? My guess is that the anime's poor animation made many viewers choose it as the "scapegoat" of the season from the very beginning. People who watch many seasonal anime often seem to feel the need to excessively criticize at least one show so they can convince themselves they have "critical thinking" or something like that, haha.

I hope my reply was helpful to offer a different perspective.

@haiyashi2k

Thanks for your POV.



I personally haven't watched many mind-games anime. I watched shows that can be considered tangentially related (Death Note, Code Geass) or actual death-games (Battle Royale, Squid Games, etc.) or western media of close genre. But LG is the true pure "mind game" show I am watching: I had Tomodachi Game and Kaiji on my list for ages, but never started them.
Still, I am familiar with math and game theory, as I studied them in college, and with gambling, as I spent some years playing Texas Hold'em in tournaments. And a bit of Blackjack too, although less frequently.
So, it's not like I'm completely a fish out of water in LG.



I won't deny that. Minority Rule was already quite clever. But when I watch an anime, I demand a story. Some sort of narrative. A character with proper depth, or an arc.
As of now, all the characters in the show feel like cardboard cutout acting as an excuse for the author/showrunners to infodump their clever strategies to the audience. The fact that they overact most of the times doesn't help either, as they appear even flatter.
This spoils those very strategies, for me: what's the point in knowing who is winning and how, if I am not invested in any of them?



Another valid point, but: how much of the criticism here on MAL was due to actual misunderstanding? I counted 2-3 times at most. The vast majority of the criticism was: "Nao dumb". Which, I admit, I also blurted out a couple of times at the beginning. Why? Because the show hasn't given us enough context yet to believe anything different. No outside context can fix that criticism at this point without hindsight from manga readers and, thus, the "trust me bro" tag that comes with it.



This is your only statement I fully disagree with.
In any story, all the answers to any questions from the audience should come from text, context or subtext.
Those are the 3 elements that define every piece of communication, including literature and media.
Both of the examples you brought are just theories and are not supported by any of those 3 elements.

Let's take the example of the lawyer knowing about Akiyama's past.
Is anything you explained mentioned explicitly (text)? No, at least not until episode 7, when the lawyer talked about it.
Is anything you explained clear from the setting or the environment (context)? No. Yours is just a theory that fits in the known context. But I have another theory that fits: the lawyer lied about Akiyama's past entirely, to manipulate Nao. Just like he lied to her previously. This theory is also compatible with the given context up until episode 7.
Is anything you explained hinted at via unspoken message (subtext)? No, not really. Up until episode 7, there were no signs of anything that could be read "between the lines" thanks to body language, nervous tics, tone or language choices from the characters (the lawyer, Nao, Akiyama). Quite the opposite: as I said above, the overacting is so egregious that pretty much every exchange ends up being "on the nose".

So, as you said yourself, your explanation is just a theory. It's head-canon. It doesn't really answer the valid question from the audience "how does the lawyer know about Akiyama's past", because it comes from outside the show. Your theory is as valid as mine, up to this point.
Since there is no clear answer, nor a hint of it, it's a totally valid criticism: the author or the showrunners didn't address this evident incongruence in the plot, which happened to break suspension of disbelief and thus immersion of part of the audience.

Not everything in a story needs to be part of explicit monologue or exposition (text). But everything should be inferable by context or subtext to a certain degree. If there are no clues, signs or indications, to the point that many completely opposite theories could be valid, then no theory is really valid and that point becomes a narrative hole.

As a counterpoint, take The Lord of the Rings (one of my usual examples, since I know it fairly well).
Tom Bombadil.
You don't know who he is, nor what are his powers. The text doesn't tell you that.
But, for example, among many other things:

• the text tells you that he is older than the Earth itself.
  
• the context tells us that he is likely more powerful than a Maia (Sauron's Ring has no effect on him).
  

With that you can work on your own deductions, but your deductions can't contradict those key points. So, you can't say he is a Maia (like Gandalf).
There are some clues provided to the reader by the novel, so you're not theorising completely blind.
In the case of the LG lawyer, until episode 7, that doesn't happen. There is literally NO CLUE of why he should know Akiyama's past.

Thanks again for your reply, it was insightful. :)
Man, if all users were like you, MAL (or any forum for that matter) would be a paradise.