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Reply to Kyou_Ryuu
@haiyashi2k
Thanks for your POV.
I personally haven't watched many mind-games anime. I watched shows that can be considered tangentially related (Death Note, Code Geass) or actual death-games (Battle Royale, Squid Games, etc.) or western media of close genre. But LG is the true pure "mind game" show I am watching: I had Tomodachi Game and Kaiji on my list for ages, but never started them.
Still, I am familiar with math and game theory, as I studied them in college, and with gambling, as I spent some years playing Texas Hold'em in tournaments. And a bit of Blackjack too, although less frequently.
So, it's not like I'm completely a fish out of water in LG.
I won't deny that. Minority Rule was already quite clever. But when I watch an anime, I demand a story. Some sort of narrative. A character with proper depth, or an arc.
As of now, all the characters in the show feel like cardboard cutout acting as an excuse for the author/showrunners to infodump their clever strategies to the audience. The fact that they overact most of the times doesn't help either, as they appear even flatter.
This spoils those very strategies, for me: what's the point in knowing who is winning and how, if I am not invested in any of them?
Another valid point, but: how much of the criticism here on MAL was due to actual misunderstanding? I counted 2-3 times at most. The vast majority of the criticism was: "Nao dumb". Which, I admit, I also blurted out a couple of times at the beginning. Why? Because the show hasn't given us enough context yet to believe anything different. No outside context can fix that criticism at this point without hindsight from manga readers and, thus, the "trust me bro" tag that comes with it.
This is your only statement I fully disagree with.
In any story, all the answers to any questions from the audience should come from text, context or subtext.
Those are the 3 elements that define every piece of communication, including literature and media.
Both of the examples you brought are just theories and are not supported by any of those 3 elements.
Let's take the example of the lawyer knowing about Akiyama's past.
Is anything you explained mentioned explicitly (text)? No, at least not until episode 7, when the lawyer talked about it.
Is anything you explained clear from the setting or the environment (context)? No. Yours is just a theory that fits in the known context. But I have another theory that fits: the lawyer lied about Akiyama's past entirely, to manipulate Nao. Just like he lied to her previously. This theory is also compatible with the given context up until episode 7.
Is anything you explained hinted at via unspoken message (subtext)? No, not really. Up until episode 7, there were no signs of anything that could be read "between the lines" thanks to body language, nervous tics, tone or language choices from the characters (the lawyer, Nao, Akiyama). Quite the opposite: as I said above, the overacting is so egregious that pretty much every exchange ends up being "on the nose".
So, as you said yourself, your explanation is just a theory. It's head-canon. It doesn't really answer the valid question from the audience "how does the lawyer know about Akiyama's past", because it comes from outside the show. Your theory is as valid as mine, up to this point.
Since there is no clear answer, nor a hint of it, it's a totally valid criticism: the author or the showrunners didn't address this evident incongruence in the plot, which happened to break suspension of disbelief and thus immersion of part of the audience.
Not everything in a story needs to be part of explicit monologue or exposition (text). But everything should be inferable by context or subtext to a certain degree. If there are no clues, signs or indications, to the point that many completely opposite theories could be valid, then no theory is really valid and that point becomes a narrative hole.
As a counterpoint, take The Lord of the Rings (one of my usual examples, since I know it fairly well).
Tom Bombadil.
You don't know who he is, nor what are his powers. The text doesn't tell you that.
But, for example, among many other things:
With that you can work on your own deductions, but your deductions can't contradict those key points. So, you can't say he is a Maia (like Gandalf).
There are some clues provided to the reader by the novel, so you're not theorising completely blind.
In the case of the LG lawyer, until episode 7, that doesn't happen. There is literally NO CLUE of why he should know Akiyama's past.
Thanks again for your reply, it was insightful. :)
Man, if all users were like you, MAL (or any forum for that matter) would be a paradise.
Thanks for your POV.
haiyashi2k said:
- Liar Game is a niche work. To enjoy it, it helps if you appreciate similar mangas about gambling, mind games, and battle of wits, like Usogui, Kaiji, Akagi, and One Outs. It also helps to have at least some interest in math, game theory, and psychology.
- Liar Game is a niche work. To enjoy it, it helps if you appreciate similar mangas about gambling, mind games, and battle of wits, like Usogui, Kaiji, Akagi, and One Outs. It also helps to have at least some interest in math, game theory, and psychology.
I personally haven't watched many mind-games anime. I watched shows that can be considered tangentially related (Death Note, Code Geass) or actual death-games (Battle Royale, Squid Games, etc.) or western media of close genre. But LG is the true pure "mind game" show I am watching: I had Tomodachi Game and Kaiji on my list for ages, but never started them.
Still, I am familiar with math and game theory, as I studied them in college, and with gambling, as I spent some years playing Texas Hold'em in tournaments. And a bit of Blackjack too, although less frequently.
So, it's not like I'm completely a fish out of water in LG.
haiyashi2k said:
- What made the manga so highly praised wasn't really the plot, narrative, or story itself. I agree those aspects are pretty simple. The real appeal was the interesting games and the clever strategies. In the later arcs, Liar Game has some of the most beautiful strategies I have ever seen in a manga.
- What made the manga so highly praised wasn't really the plot, narrative, or story itself. I agree those aspects are pretty simple. The real appeal was the interesting games and the clever strategies. In the later arcs, Liar Game has some of the most beautiful strategies I have ever seen in a manga.
I won't deny that. Minority Rule was already quite clever. But when I watch an anime, I demand a story. Some sort of narrative. A character with proper depth, or an arc.
As of now, all the characters in the show feel like cardboard cutout acting as an excuse for the author/showrunners to infodump their clever strategies to the audience. The fact that they overact most of the times doesn't help either, as they appear even flatter.
This spoils those very strategies, for me: what's the point in knowing who is winning and how, if I am not invested in any of them?
haiyashi2k said:
outside context may also be necessary for another reason: misunderstandings.
outside context may also be necessary for another reason: misunderstandings.
Another valid point, but: how much of the criticism here on MAL was due to actual misunderstanding? I counted 2-3 times at most. The vast majority of the criticism was: "Nao dumb". Which, I admit, I also blurted out a couple of times at the beginning. Why? Because the show hasn't given us enough context yet to believe anything different. No outside context can fix that criticism at this point without hindsight from manga readers and, thus, the "trust me bro" tag that comes with it.
haiyashi2k said:
Besides that, many complaints can be answered through simple logical deductions
Besides that, many complaints can be answered through simple logical deductions
This is your only statement I fully disagree with.
In any story, all the answers to any questions from the audience should come from text, context or subtext.
Those are the 3 elements that define every piece of communication, including literature and media.
Both of the examples you brought are just theories and are not supported by any of those 3 elements.
Let's take the example of the lawyer knowing about Akiyama's past.
Is anything you explained mentioned explicitly (text)? No, at least not until episode 7, when the lawyer talked about it.
Is anything you explained clear from the setting or the environment (context)? No. Yours is just a theory that fits in the known context. But I have another theory that fits: the lawyer lied about Akiyama's past entirely, to manipulate Nao. Just like he lied to her previously. This theory is also compatible with the given context up until episode 7.
Is anything you explained hinted at via unspoken message (subtext)? No, not really. Up until episode 7, there were no signs of anything that could be read "between the lines" thanks to body language, nervous tics, tone or language choices from the characters (the lawyer, Nao, Akiyama). Quite the opposite: as I said above, the overacting is so egregious that pretty much every exchange ends up being "on the nose".
So, as you said yourself, your explanation is just a theory. It's head-canon. It doesn't really answer the valid question from the audience "how does the lawyer know about Akiyama's past", because it comes from outside the show. Your theory is as valid as mine, up to this point.
Since there is no clear answer, nor a hint of it, it's a totally valid criticism: the author or the showrunners didn't address this evident incongruence in the plot, which happened to break suspension of disbelief and thus immersion of part of the audience.
Not everything in a story needs to be part of explicit monologue or exposition (text). But everything should be inferable by context or subtext to a certain degree. If there are no clues, signs or indications, to the point that many completely opposite theories could be valid, then no theory is really valid and that point becomes a narrative hole.
As a counterpoint, take The Lord of the Rings (one of my usual examples, since I know it fairly well).
Tom Bombadil.
You don't know who he is, nor what are his powers. The text doesn't tell you that.
But, for example, among many other things:
- the text tells you that he is older than the Earth itself.
- the context tells us that he is likely more powerful than a Maia (Sauron's Ring has no effect on him).
With that you can work on your own deductions, but your deductions can't contradict those key points. So, you can't say he is a Maia (like Gandalf).
There are some clues provided to the reader by the novel, so you're not theorising completely blind.
In the case of the LG lawyer, until episode 7, that doesn't happen. There is literally NO CLUE of why he should know Akiyama's past.
Thanks again for your reply, it was insightful. :)
Man, if all users were like you, MAL (or any forum for that matter) would be a paradise.
| @Kyou_Ryuu Kyou_Ryuu said: I won't deny that. Minority Rule was already quite clever. But when I watch an anime, I demand a story. Some sort of narrative. A character with proper depth, or an arc. As of now, all the characters in the show feel like cardboard cutout acting as an excuse for the author/showrunners to infodump their clever strategies to the audience. The fact that they overact most of the times doesn't help either, as they appear even flatter. This spoils those very strategies, for me: what's the point in knowing who is winning and how, if I am not invested in any of them? I see, so the narrative is the most important aspect for you when watching anime, right? The writing in Liar Game, in my view, is not bad, but it's simple, and you could see it as an excuse for the author to create interesting games, scenarios, and strategies, haha. Perhaps that will continue to be an obstacle to you enjoying the series, so maybe you started watching it with the wrong expectations, which is the point I raised initially. Kyou_Ryuu said: Still, I am familiar with math and game theory, as I studied them in college, and with gambling, as I spent some years playing Texas Hold'em in tournaments. And a bit of Blackjack too, although less frequently. So, it's not like I'm completely a fish out of water in LG. Especially given the context you provided, I think there's a good chance you'd greatly appreciate the future arcs of the series. So, there's still hope, haha. If you're willing to keep watching, even if you continue to think the narrative is weak, you may end up appreciating Liar Game for its unique qualities and considering it an exception to the kind of anime you usually enjoy. Kyou_Ryuu said: Another valid point, but: how much of the criticism here on MAL was due to actual misunderstanding? I counted 2-3 times at most. The vast majority of the criticism was: "Nao dumb". Which, I admit, I also blurted out a couple of times at the beginning. Why? Because the show hasn't given us enough context yet to believe anything different. No outside context can fix that criticism at this point without hindsight from manga readers and, thus, the "trust me bro" tag that comes with it. Yeah, regarding Nao's naivety, some people will get angry at her personality, and I don't think that's a problem, haha. But I think it's a logical leap when someone assumes the writing is bad simply because they didn't sympathize with the character. I see it as a very cool choice by the author to want to work with this type of character, and it's interesting from the perspective of the games that she's paired with a genius, to balance things out a bit. And I like how the author makes it clear in the first scene of episode 1 how comically absurd the character is, with her handing over a coin she found on the street to the police, haha. From the beginning, the author has tried to adjust the audience's expectations regarding Nao's naivety. Again, expectations are a recurring theme. Kyou_Ryuu said: So, as you said yourself, your explanation is just a theory. It's head-canon. It doesn't really answer the valid question from the audience "how does the lawyer know about Akiyama's past", because it comes from outside the show. Your theory is as valid as mine, up to this point. Exactly. We came up with two theories that fit, and we could think of many others. I think the existence of these theories is proof that the scene is not an incongruence in the plot, but rather a mystery intentionally left open for now, which may or may not be addressed later, so what you said about the narrative containing clues in the text, context, or subtext doesn't even need to apply at this moment. Kyou_Ryuu said: Since there is no clear answer, nor a hint of it, it's a totally valid criticism: the author or the showrunners didn't address this evident incongruence in the plot, which happened to break suspension of disbelief and thus immersion of part of the audience. I think that could only be considered an incongruence in the plot if the opposite were true: if we couldn't think of any theory that fits that situation (without seeming extremely forced). It's perfectly fine to leave the mystery open, at least for now, don't you agree? Kyou_Ryuu said: Thanks again for your reply, it was insightful. :) Man, if all users were like you, MAL (or any forum for that matter) would be a paradise. Thanks, your reply was insightful too! :) |
haiyashi512May 29, 6:12 PM
| "The fear of leaving this world with unlived dreams is not a curse, it is the fire that pushes you forward." |
Reply to Kyou_Ryuu
EscapismToTheMax said:
I think if the show is too smart for someone's brains and it's hurting him and he screams the only thing I could do is go and explain the design / the logic.
I think if the show is too smart for someone's brains and it's hurting him and he screams the only thing I could do is go and explain the design / the logic.
None of the things you mentioned in your previous messages is ever explained in the show, up to this point. Hindsight (because you know the rest of the story) is never a valid explanation. It falls into "trust me bro" territory.
Instead of blaming the audience for having their brain hurt and/or screaming, I blame the show for not giving enough context to the audience to enjoy it.
There are countless of stories out there that can be enjoyed without knowing anything about the topic at hand. I can enjoy "Sangatsu no lion" without knowing anything about shogi. I can enjoy "Hikaru no Go" without knowing anything about go.
If people come here complaining that the show is poorly written (so far), and it's the majority of them, most likely something is off.
And it's not like they are just tourists or action-shōnen hardcore fans. I've been watching all kind of anime, of many different genres, since 1995. I've watched so many that I don't even remember a good half of them that I watched in the past, and for that reason they're not even in my MAL list.
And I still find this show underwhelming. Is the manga better? Maybe, I haven't read it so I don't know. But the anime doesn't strike me as memorable. And the reason? Beside the obvious low production value, it's in the writing.
What you label as "Nao haters" are most likely just frustrated by her behaviour. And your explanations don't help, because they are HERE, while they should be evident IN THE SHOW ITSELF.
| @Kyou_Ryuu OK, yes, hindsight is a proper word here. I kinda get what you mean now and I can break it down now in a more clear way as well. Now, almost everything I wrote is with Round 3 in mind. And as long as you pay attention by the nature of Round 3 game you instantly recognize Economics theme buildup. As for financial, its a much longer payoff you might not see at all (the most financial game is Bid Poker and it may never see the live screen). And its not like all people would prolly enjoy financial trading angle anyway but it ties to the background of LGT org / dealers. So in other words, it's exactly as you said becomes evident in the show itself but not at this point in time. Now, back to the core of problem. Liar Game is not a mainstream show as it hard to understand for mainstream anime onlys. True. Does it make a POOR WRITTEN / ADAPTED claim valid. No, it doesn't. I mean if people drop or dislike the show because its too demanding or too smart, no one would bat an eye. Nao haters instead openly scream they are smarter than anyone (nor only Nao but other viewers who don't want to kill her for her stupidity) being the less informed mass and it's not because Liar Game is a complex thing. You try to defend that flock but on other hand you A) ain't a Nao hater; B) familiar with competitive gaming & tournaments ; C) read my posts; D) familiar with no-limits poker & game theory bits. Nao haters are EXACTLY ZERO on that and every other thing and that's why they react that way. So we dismiss them, people just unwilling to hear and learn can't be problem of ANY show, especially game-heavy one imo. The complexity of the game narrative is the Liar Game SELLING POINT and the fact its aligned with the manga readers first and utmost is just BUSINESS DECISION. You can't please everyone. |
EscapismToTheMaxMay 29, 7:52 PM
| My honesty's brutal but it's honestly futile if I don't utilize what I do though for good, at least once in a while |
| Now it still asks "if it's adaptation why they need to stay to manga Flow (so don't bring any extra frames or explanations to improve on mainstream perception). The answer is rude and simple, same with the request on a increase of production value, etc. You live in a REAL world where extra decision you ask Madhouse to make COST money. I mean if you seen the goddamn The Boys TV series recent finale you'd instantly grasp what I meant here (as much as I hated Kripke for that, it was Amazon's commercial decision), so it's a universal rule. As a manga reader who'd support Liar Game by buying out releases all I want is money going only towards more PROMPT releases. That's just playing you core money-bringing audience for ya. I mean improving mainstream appreciation for that kind of show doesnt make people spend their cash, so how you'd justify it to your producers committee ? Round 3 is so complex like it doesn't even matter whether Nao is hated or loved, the only practical thing is seiyu / OST / new OP. At this point I treat Liar Game as a passion project which is ONLY taking place cause Madhouse cashed out Frieren jackpot and whose only goal should be Season 2 two cour continuation . Now, if it COULD prompt the Western adaptation with a much higher budget I'd be completely on your side, but even now I don't get at people for saying "hmm, I am yet to be impressed", cause the brutal truth is How much anyone would be impressed by Akagi before Washizu? By Kaiji before death race and Tonegawa? By Squid Game S1 before 2nd part (Marbles & VIP game) ? By Tomodachi Game before Hide-and-Seek? So I don't expect anime only audience to be impressed without Round 3, that's a sure bet. And while I agree previous games all could been improved (especially and most importantly Downsizing), I don't agree it's fair to point on it as a drawback cause the nature of games is unchanged and stellar. So at the moment you blame Madhouse for only targetting ore audience and me for improving the experience only of the core audience (you included), which for me is the only REAL scenario. TLDR: staying with the manga flow is a no risk no-brainer decision. Japanese manga fans buy merch and collection releases, Western manga fans buy that and official English Manga translation. So if the audience who funds the show don't need changes why pay for them and risk not only production pipeline, but the loyalty of manga fans as well? (as a logic illustration: just by making Nao pretty hot complaints evaporate, but it would go against the manga source and some Japanese fans wouldnt buy anime home collection release because of that. Non-core moe shills don't replace that buyer and the end result is net financial loss) |
EscapismToTheMaxMay 29, 7:47 PM
| My honesty's brutal but it's honestly futile if I don't utilize what I do though for good, at least once in a while |
Reply to Kyou_Ryuu
Lucifrost said:
If you keep watching, you will find out if the fake lawyer told the truth about Akiyama or if he lied. You will learn all sorts of things you don't currently know. That is usually how storytelling works.
If you keep watching, you will find out if the fake lawyer told the truth about Akiyama or if he lied. You will learn all sorts of things you don't currently know. That is usually how storytelling works.
@Lucifrost
True. So I assume you never dropped a show because you found the storytelling unengaging? Why didn't you "keep watching"?
It's up to the authors to keep me hooked enough to "keep watching". So far in LG, they are close to failing.
Kyou_Ryuu said: So I assume you never dropped a show because you found the storytelling unengaging? I do that all the time. What I don't do is complain about details that I know will be explained later on. Like you're doing. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| dang how i hate damsels in distress |
Reply to THE-DOG-CATCHER
@TheColonel76 I would love to have this mindset but it is not like she is getting scammed or duped by a different scheme each time. She is falling for the same mistake. Oh the lawyer you put your trust in betrayed you and made you join the second game even though you were saved. Sure listen to him and join the game for a third time after being saved twice over. Oh the cross dressing villain you teamed up with back stabbed you and everyone in the second game, sure listen and trust that person fully again and act shocked when they back stab you. Just her existing at this point hurts this story and makes it agony. If it followed any other character this show would be better off. Nao is coming off boarder line mentally challenged and it is not even fun to watch her since she just does her stupid surprised pikachu face and waits to be saved. 
| @THE-DOG-CATCHER thanks for this spot-on observation now i feel a bit better 😒 |
THE-DOG-CATCHER said: @TheColonel76 I would love to have this mindset but it is not like she is getting scammed or duped by a different scheme each time. She is falling for the same mistake. Oh the lawyer you put your trust in betrayed you and made you join the second game even though you were saved. Sure listen to him and join the game for a third time after being saved twice over. Oh the cross dressing villain you teamed up with back stabbed you and everyone in the second game, sure listen and trust that person fully again and act shocked when they back stab you. Just her existing at this point hurts this story and makes it agony. If it followed any other character this show would be better off. Nao is coming off boarder line mentally challenged and it is not even fun to watch her since she just does her stupid surprised pikachu face and waits to be saved. thanks for this spot-on observation now i feel a bit better 🙄🙄🙄 p.s. first time to give a rating of 2 to an episode, says a lot |
sakurasyinksMay 31, 3:28 AM
Reply to Kyou_Ryuu
@Lucifrost
That's not the reason why I'd drop the show. :)
It's not even a complaint, just a statement: if the author doesn't explain why LG organisations knows about Akiyama's past at this point of the story, then it can be a narrative hole.
Do they explain this later?
That's not the reason why I'd drop the show. :)
It's not even a complaint, just a statement: if the author doesn't explain why LG organisations knows about Akiyama's past at this point of the story, then it can be a narrative hole.
Do they explain this later?
Kyou_Ryuu said: if the author doesn't explain why LG organisations knows about Akiyama's past at this point of the story, then it can be a narrative hole. They don't need to explain that because it's not a hole. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to Kyou_Ryuu
@Lucifrost
It's enough to break some people's immersion, otherwise they wouldn't have raised the issue in the first place.
Or do you think that random people knowing about your past in real life is normal?
Does the complete stranger living 2 streets from you know about your secret traumas?
Weird world you live in. Luckily, it's not the same as mine. :)
It's enough to break some people's immersion, otherwise they wouldn't have raised the issue in the first place.
Or do you think that random people knowing about your past in real life is normal?
Does the complete stranger living 2 streets from you know about your secret traumas?
Weird world you live in. Luckily, it's not the same as mine. :)
Kyou_Ryuu said: Or do you think that random people knowing about your past in real life is normal? He's not a random person. He's an employee of Liar Game. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to Kyou_Ryuu
@Lucifrost
Good. How does he know about Akiyama's past then?
Was Akiyama also an employee of Liar Game? Did they know each other on the job? :)
Please use only information from the source to answer. I don't mind spoilers.
No theories/head-canon allowed: only text, context and subtext from manga or anime allowed.
Can you answer?
Good. How does he know about Akiyama's past then?
Was Akiyama also an employee of Liar Game? Did they know each other on the job? :)
Please use only information from the source to answer. I don't mind spoilers.
No theories/head-canon allowed: only text, context and subtext from manga or anime allowed.
Can you answer?
| @Kyou_Ryuu I am unable to answer your question without using my brain. I always use my brain while watching TV. I get more out of the experience that way. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| I really like shows like this....however I am so tempted to drop it and I don't drop anything. OMG Nao you get what you deserve. How in the flying hell can you keep trusting these people after they screwed you over multiple times....you are by far the dumbest character I have seen in a long time. I actually want her to lose and I hate myself that I'm saying it but my god I can't take her stupidity. Its not Naivety anymore, its sheer stupidity. I have autism and I'm not as dense as her. |
 |
Reply to WolfWood37
I really like shows like this....however I am so tempted to drop it and I don't drop anything.
OMG Nao you get what you deserve. How in the flying hell can you keep trusting these people after they screwed you over multiple times....you are by far the dumbest character I have seen in a long time.
I actually want her to lose and I hate myself that I'm saying it but my god I can't take her stupidity. Its not Naivety anymore, its sheer stupidity.
I have autism and I'm not as dense as her.
OMG Nao you get what you deserve. How in the flying hell can you keep trusting these people after they screwed you over multiple times....you are by far the dumbest character I have seen in a long time.
I actually want her to lose and I hate myself that I'm saying it but my god I can't take her stupidity. Its not Naivety anymore, its sheer stupidity.
I have autism and I'm not as dense as her.
| @WolfWood37 Luffy is as dense as her, imo, haha. |
| "The fear of leaving this world with unlived dreams is not a curse, it is the fire that pushes you forward." |
Reply to Kyou_Ryuu
@Lucifrost
I.e. you have to fill some immersion-breaking gaps in the story yourself because the authors didn't provide you enough information.
In other words: narrative hole.
Q.E.D.
Thanks for helping me solve this conundrum, your brain definitely helped. :)
I.e. you have to fill some immersion-breaking gaps in the story yourself because the authors didn't provide you enough information.
In other words: narrative hole.
Q.E.D.
Thanks for helping me solve this conundrum, your brain definitely helped. :)
| @Kyou_Ryuu Kyou_Ryuu said: In other words: narrative hole. I'm not sure if you saw my last reply to you. I'd like to add to what I said earlier by saying that I disagree with that statement because, in my view, a narrative hole is a consequence that wasn't noticed by the author himself, and I'm pretty sure that's not the case here. But whether it's called a "narrative hole" or not is only a semantic issue. I agree that you could call it "poor writing" if you wish. It would be easy to avoid that criticism if the author had added a line with Nao asking the fake lawyer how he knows about Akiyama's backstory. But again: 1) Unfortunately, people seem to be focusing too much on the negative aspects and not talking enough about the positive ones. 2) The target audience, when approaching the series with the right expectations, shouldn't be expecting great writing in the first place. Honestly, the low ratings so far aren't a surprise, because Liar Game has: 1) Poor animation quality. 2) A specific audience in mind, since it's a niche work. 3) Unusual narrative choices by the author since chapter 1. 4) An adaptation that came too late compared to the original work, so it lost its momentum. Maybe if it had been released around the same time as Kaiji, it would be a different story. All these ingredients form a recipe that explains the poor reception from the broader audience. I just hope the target audience can stick with it and feel rewarded later. |
haiyashi512Jun 1, 2:27 AM
| "The fear of leaving this world with unlived dreams is not a curse, it is the fire that pushes you forward." |
Reply to Kyou_Ryuu
@Lucifrost
That's not the reason why I'd drop the show. :)
It's not even a complaint, just a statement: if the author doesn't explain why LG organisations knows about Akiyama's past at this point of the story, then it can be a narrative hole.
Do they explain this later?
That's not the reason why I'd drop the show. :)
It's not even a complaint, just a statement: if the author doesn't explain why LG organisations knows about Akiyama's past at this point of the story, then it can be a narrative hole.
Do they explain this later?
| @Kyou_Ryuu Sorry to butt in, just two things. A) back in a day, live drama built its entire LGT plot on this. So I understand where you coming from and what are some narrative requirements for the traditional show. However this is manga adaption world where everything lives by mangaka design Ie look at One Piece that have more unresolved shit in 20 years than you can probably safely count on with half of crew running as the retards doing retardious things instead of author explaining those holes - and nobody bats an eye. Different medium, different rules B) notice how much Squid Game orgs knew of its participants who weren't convicted criminals even and were randomly picked up (or at least that's what implied). Not only they knew their stories, but the exact debt amounts outstanding too. For me it raises an important question: do those who criticize Nao / Liar Game ever watched Kaiji or Squid Game or any other deathgame? Cause those issues mentioned are kinda the genre DEFINING staples, same as protag who don't play by the cruel game rules, etc. This is a case of hypocrisy, unawareness, preference mismatch, male chauvenism / supremacy or two or more those factors in play simultaneously. But what's even more baffling its just cherry picking at this point. I mean as far as LGT organization goes - they can BUY any info judged by the sheer amount of money in play. |
EscapismToTheMaxJun 1, 5:01 AM
| My honesty's brutal but it's honestly futile if I don't utilize what I do though for good, at least once in a while |
Reply to Kyou_Ryuu
EscapismToTheMax said:
You try to defend that flock but on other hand you
A) ain't a Nao hater; B) familiar with competitive gaming & tournaments ; C) read my posts; D) familiar with no-limits poker & game theory bits.
Nao haters are EXACTLY ZERO on that and every other thing and that's why they react that way. So we dismiss them, people just unwilling to hear and learn can't be problem of ANY show, especially game-heavy one imo.
You try to defend that flock but on other hand you
A) ain't a Nao hater; B) familiar with competitive gaming & tournaments ; C) read my posts; D) familiar with no-limits poker & game theory bits.
Nao haters are EXACTLY ZERO on that and every other thing and that's why they react that way. So we dismiss them, people just unwilling to hear and learn can't be problem of ANY show, especially game-heavy one imo.
@EscapismToTheMax
I used to be a "Nao hater"... go check my first few comments in ep. 1 and 2. :)
I grew out of that mindset for one reason, which is meta-narrative, i.e. not related to the story: I worked and still work as a writer, so I "trust the process".
My reasoning: this used to be a serialised manga, with professional support, editors and whatnot. It's highly regarded by authors and professionals. So it's clearly not a money-grab isekai-of-the-season. So, if the author decided to characterise Nao that way and keep her that way for so long, and no editor barged in to force him to do otherwise, there must be a reason. If this adaptation is really so faithful to the manga, then I will eventually get why Nao has to be this way. I think I got it at least partially by episode 7, but I'm still not entirely sold THIS was the best way to tell the story.
However, I kept watching just because I know the craft of writing. I didn't trust the story, because the story gave me very little to trust, so far. I trusted the work behind the story to keep going. In other words, I had to cling to external elements, the same ones I always tell you should NOT affect one's enjoyment, in order to keep watching. That's sign of bad storytelling, up to this point.
I'm pretty sure this story has something interesting in store for me later... but it's not the story telling me this, it's my knowledge of the process that's pushing me onwards. If I were oblivious to the writing process, as I assume most of the audience is, I would have dropped this show after ep. 3.
Also, final note: you classify all "Nao haters" as if they were one homogeneous group, thus treating all of them the same way.
They are not.
I was in that group until ep. 3. I had my reasons. All the people you write to are INDIVIDUALS, with their own reasons.
I don't doubt that among them there could be haters for the sake of hating. But you can NEVER know from a forum post if some of them would really love to love the show, and they just can't because the writing doesn't offer them the opportunity, so far.
| @Kyou_Ryuu Well, at least I get why you defend Nao haters and the base of your criticism, much thanks! I still kindly disagree for the reason I'm not an aspiring writer therefore I have no prior beliefs bout people other than what's been shown by them on ask. So when I see clearly a missing reading comprehension, I know what kind of flock we are exactly dealing here. It's not about their preference on a show for me, it's their level as the MAL forum participants. I mean if you were paying attention, I call people on other shows to see their reaction. And the guy who replied on Oshi no Ko S3 "it's not a biological incest cause they haven't fucked on a screen!" took the prize from me. This is the level of Nao haters we dealing with. Now while it makes them highly INDIVIDUAL in such case, it's arguably its only for the worse. Now onto your point I don't mind people dropping Liar Game. In fact, as long as they drop out of all the following discussion threads, it's a win for both sides. You're spot on author has a message with Nao, you can read interviews on his Pov, but I don't think it's the problem by itself nor should serve the only explanation (Friendly reminder One Piece has retards running around 20 years straight no character development, beginning arcs being utter shit and yet earning a remake due to how TV production works etc Yet you don't watch One Piece to see anything remote to smart) So by reverse logic you watch Liar Game to see SOMETHING SMART. It may differ between people and their preferences, but yeah LG is all about excellent written games for SMART audience. So by design it doesnt have pandering, glossy images, fanservice, trends or spoon-fed shit and is obviously HAILED FOR IT. All I see in Nao haters is people who are DUMB ENOUGH to think they can challenge it, coming from a mainstream grounds. So to sum up, while your story and your logic makes sense, don't forget Liar Game can't and won't appeal to mainstream audience at least before Round 3. It's just a rule of thumb if you may, you can improve the experience of the core audience which already likes the show and understands it. It's not bad storytelling by any stretch no matter how much you'd try to cherry pick as an anime only viewer as you have no idea what been answered in manga and what not. No one is saying it's super impressive for anime onlys, but that's also how genre works so it shouldn't count it too |
EscapismToTheMaxJun 1, 5:32 AM
| My honesty's brutal but it's honestly futile if I don't utilize what I do though for good, at least once in a while |
| Episode 9 is coming and I predict some people gonna hate Nao as usual and the next episode 9 thread will instantly have ten 1/10 votes as usual in the first 5 minutes. Come on guys, if Nao was smart, the anime would had ended at episode 3 and we wouldnt witness other games :P |
| Ḻ͖͚̤̥͂ͪͩ̽ͅo͖̺̒̉r̰̝ͣͤ̌̉̃̀d ͈̹̠͎͙̗ͪ̄͆ͪ̈̃̀R̩͌͂͑ͦi͔̯̱̣̹̜̲x͕̮̞̮̪̒͆̈́u̜̦͔͈̮͕͈͐̇̔̒̐el̰̖̦͒͛ Discord qhCsvqT Make English people read this: Ohio go say mass |
Reply to Kyou_Ryuu
@Lucifrost
Good. How does he know about Akiyama's past then?
Was Akiyama also an employee of Liar Game? Did they know each other on the job? :)
Please use only information from the source to answer. I don't mind spoilers.
No theories/head-canon allowed: only text, context and subtext from manga or anime allowed.
Can you answer?
Good. How does he know about Akiyama's past then?
Was Akiyama also an employee of Liar Game? Did they know each other on the job? :)
Please use only information from the source to answer. I don't mind spoilers.
No theories/head-canon allowed: only text, context and subtext from manga or anime allowed.
Can you answer?
| @Kyou_Ryuu Akiyama scammed the MLM company and made into the news, how could someone not know about his past? Or if he doesn't know his past, it could had been made of (lies) based on the news. |
| Ḻ͖͚̤̥͂ͪͩ̽ͅo͖̺̒̉r̰̝ͣͤ̌̉̃̀d ͈̹̠͎͙̗ͪ̄͆ͪ̈̃̀R̩͌͂͑ͦi͔̯̱̣̹̜̲x͕̮̞̮̪̒͆̈́u̜̦͔͈̮͕͈͐̇̔̒̐el̰̖̦͒͛ Discord qhCsvqT Make English people read this: Ohio go say mass |
Reply to Rixuel
Episode 9 is coming and I predict some people gonna hate Nao as usual and the next episode 9 thread will instantly have ten 1/10 votes as usual in the first 5 minutes.
Come on guys, if Nao was smart, the anime would had ended at episode 3 and we wouldnt witness other games :P
Come on guys, if Nao was smart, the anime would had ended at episode 3 and we wouldnt witness other games :P
| @Rixuel If they don't show Nao comeback the same episode I'd be damn surprised with 3 chapters per episode as a rule. Still hate watching is still watching and hate posting is still posting. If MAL haters are willing to have them crushed, so be it xD |
| My honesty's brutal but it's honestly futile if I don't utilize what I do though for good, at least once in a while |
Reply to Rixuel
Episode 9 is coming and I predict some people gonna hate Nao as usual and the next episode 9 thread will instantly have ten 1/10 votes as usual in the first 5 minutes.
Come on guys, if Nao was smart, the anime would had ended at episode 3 and we wouldnt witness other games :P
Come on guys, if Nao was smart, the anime would had ended at episode 3 and we wouldnt witness other games :P
Rixuel said: the next episode 9 thread will instantly have ten 1/10 votes as usual in the first 5 minutes. Every anime has that. They're bots. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to EscapismToTheMax
@Rixuel
If they don't show Nao comeback the same episode I'd be damn surprised with 3 chapters per episode as a rule.
Still hate watching is still watching and hate posting is still posting. If MAL haters are willing to have them crushed, so be it xD
If they don't show Nao comeback the same episode I'd be damn surprised with 3 chapters per episode as a rule.
Still hate watching is still watching and hate posting is still posting. If MAL haters are willing to have them crushed, so be it xD
| @EscapismToTheMax EscapismToTheMax said: If they don't show Nao comeback the same episode I'd be damn surprised with 3 chapters per episode as a rule. Still hate watching is still watching and hate posting is still posting. If MAL haters are willing to have them crushed, so be it xD If they put the comeback in the same episode, it would be a good idea than to give us a cliffhanger lol |
| Ḻ͖͚̤̥͂ͪͩ̽ͅo͖̺̒̉r̰̝ͣͤ̌̉̃̀d ͈̹̠͎͙̗ͪ̄͆ͪ̈̃̀R̩͌͂͑ͦi͔̯̱̣̹̜̲x͕̮̞̮̪̒͆̈́u̜̦͔͈̮͕͈͐̇̔̒̐el̰̖̦͒͛ Discord qhCsvqT Make English people read this: Ohio go say mass |
Reply to Lucifrost
Rixuel said:
the next episode 9 thread will instantly have ten 1/10 votes as usual in the first 5 minutes.
the next episode 9 thread will instantly have ten 1/10 votes as usual in the first 5 minutes.
Every anime has that. They're bots.
| @Lucifrost i should spend more time on the forum lol why these bots exist in the first place? xd |
| Ḻ͖͚̤̥͂ͪͩ̽ͅo͖̺̒̉r̰̝ͣͤ̌̉̃̀d ͈̹̠͎͙̗ͪ̄͆ͪ̈̃̀R̩͌͂͑ͦi͔̯̱̣̹̜̲x͕̮̞̮̪̒͆̈́u̜̦͔͈̮͕͈͐̇̔̒̐el̰̖̦͒͛ Discord qhCsvqT Make English people read this: Ohio go say mass |
| To me if Nao figured out how to fight back on her own it would be a different story, but every time is she gets tricked back into the game, she falls for someone's lies multiple timesand Akiyama has to save her....again. Rinse and repeat. For a protag to continue to be completely clueless and helpless does not make a compelling character at all. |
| |
| Siiiigh. Nao just constantly dooms herself. She’s not teachable. |
| Baka Nao even after everything she has gone through, she’s still the same person. I know that believing in others has become such a rare thing in our society, even though it’s one of the most noble qualities a person can have. But in Nao’s case, it’s getting a little ridiculous. She trusts people to a degree that keeps getting her into trouble. Somehow, Fukunaga is the only one who seems to be playing the game properly, and it’s starting to make things a bit predictable. At least Akiyama is on the move now, so hopefully he can shake things up and do something about the situation. |
| Ms Fukunaga going from enemy number one to leading the game with everyone wrapped around her finger is wild. She definitely lucked out with Nao being in this competition. Most people wouldn't have went for an alliance after being thrown to the wolves. Also her stomping out Miura for revealing the pricey contracts she locked the other competitors in caught me off guard. I guess violence hasn't been explicitly prohibited, but with how calm and collected everyone's been I forgot that fact. But nonetheless, it hasn't been condoned either. |
 |
| Nao, while I don't hate you for wanting to see the good side of a person...there's always a LIMIT!!!! Fukunaga betrayed you before and you trusted her blindly again, this is not being a good person but being stupid!!! |
| Nao has to be the most stupid character ever. |
| Poor Nao she's getting tricked again obviously, she needs Akiyama to save her, seems like he's coming though :) |
 |
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